Jon Wiener: From The Nation journal, that is Begin Making Sense. I’m Jon Wiener. Later within the
present: Donald Trump is demanding that UCLA pay a one billioin greenback tremendous as a penalty for
antisemitism on campus–that’s on high of the $584 million in cuts for analysis grants
that his administration has imposed. However one Billion? Why not one Trillon? David Myers will
remark. However first: the Danes resisted fascism. We are able to too. Sarah Sophie Flicker will clarify –
in a minute.
[BREAK]
Everyone who is aware of about resistance to Hitler is aware of about Denmark. The Danes rescued
extra of their Jews than every other nation, 99%. And Jews right here discovered at an early age that when
Hitler ordered the Jews of occupied Denmark to put on the yellow star, the King of Denmark and
the Prime Minister rode by means of Copenhagen on horseback sporting the yellow star themselves.
After which everyone placed on the yellow star.
We’re joined now by the good granddaughter of that Prime Minister, Sarah Sophie Flicker. She’s
an organizer who works on the intersection of tradition and politics, particularly on abortion rights
and gender justice. She’s a founding father of the Girls’s March on Washington and co-author of the
Girls’s March official ebook, Collectively We Rise – a New York Instances bestseller. In her new
article for The Nation, “The Danes Resisted Fascism, and So Can We” was primary on the
‘most learn’ listing at thenation.com all weekend. Sarah Sophie Flicker, welcome to this system.
Sarah Sophie Flicker: Hello, Jon. Thanks for having me.
JW: Like the remainder of us, you discovered that story about your great-grandfather and the King using
on horseback by means of Copenhagen, defying Hitler by sporting the yellow star. It’s actually an
unforgettable story.
SSF: It’s an unforgettable story and was some form of lighthouse for me and the work that I do
now. And I held quick to it my complete childhood, my complete younger maturity, and I actually resisted
researching it as a result of I liked it a lot and, in my family, the sorry was true. And the few
occasions I used to be like, effectively, why aren’t there any footage? Or it was at all times like, it doesn’t matter. It’s
true. I believe all of us knew it wasn’t fully true and the reality because it seems as I started researching
it’s in some ways way more highly effective than the parable as a result of no person wore the yellow star. Not a
single individual, not the king, not my nice grandfather who was a first-rate minister for the start
of the struggle, not a single Jew. I’m half Danish, half New Jersey Jew all through and
by means of. My mother and father now dwell in Denmark. My mother by no means grew to become a citizen, so being Danish
was as animated to me in my youth as being American.
JW: Over time, you’ve heard lots of different tales about your Danish household in World Struggle
II. Inform us about your aunts and uncles.
SSF: Yeah, and these tales are all true. A majority of simply common folks joined the resistance,
they usually joined the resistance with out coaching, with out prior information of how to withstand. They
simply did it they usually did it – they form of acquired in the place they slot in. My grandfather, he was a part of
the resistance, and what I used to be instructed was that he would sleep together with his boots on so he may spring
into motion instantly. Then I had an aunt who labored in a hospital, and it seems hospitals
had been a significant level of resistance in Denmark. They did every part from fabricating medical
information of Jewish folks to say that they had been too unwell to journey, they hid folks there, they
smuggled info. It was a hub of resistance. And my uncle Mogens was a fairly well-
identified journalist in Denmark. And in the course of the struggle, he smuggled info at a fantastic threat and
then he went on to hitch one of many underground unlawful papers.
JW: The one a part of the story of Danish resistance that I do know is in regards to the escape to Sweden.
How on Rosh Hashanah evening in 1943, the Nazis ordered the roundup of all Danish Jews to
transport them to focus camps. However a sympathetic German embassy official warned
Danish leaders. They instructed Jewish leaders, and the Danes by some means acquired nearly all of the Danish
Jews, 1000’s of them handed SS patrols onto small fishing boats that ferried them to Sweden
10 miles away, 1000’s of individuals. That story is true, nevertheless it was just one chapter in an extended
historical past of resistance that you simply’ve been studying about and a historical past that you simply assume has some good
examples for us dealing with Trump’s fascist strikes. One in all my favourite components of the story that you simply inform
that I didn’t know something about was the ten Commandments for Danes.
SSF: Yeah. Once I lastly was courageous sufficient to launch the fabricated story, and as Trump took
his second time period and as an organizer, I believed, okay, I’m going to go towards the Danish grain.
There’s a regulation in Denmark known as the Jante regulation, which is the folks’s regulation, which is you don’t
heart your self. It actually frowns upon ego, issues which are very commonplace within the US, and that
was a giant hurdle for me to recover from as a result of I used to be very a lot raised with that. And I believe in
organizing, we are inclined to imagine collectively that it’s a bunch of those who do the most effective work. And
so typically it’s not a charismatic chief or one particular, distinctive individual. In researching all this, I
chanced on, it’s very onerous to search out this story of a 17-year-old resistance member named Arne
Sejr, let’s say, I’m most likely mispronouncing it, and he wrote down with a pen and paper, I believe
it’s known as the ten Commandments for Danes, they usually had been simply easy, easy, mainly
simply don’t comply,
JW: Don’t work for the Nazis, don’t store of their shops, don’t imagine the propaganda, defend the
folks they persecute.
SSF: And he made, I believe he wrote down 25 copies, and he handed them to the notable
members of his little village, and by some means these commandments went viral. Different folks wrote
them down, finally printing presses, printed them. And I believe there have been most likely posters. I
haven’t been capable of finding a picture of them, however we do have them written down. I believe the one
that stands out to me essentially the most is to guard whoever is being focused. That simply is a baseline. I
assume that’s at all times necessary to listen to, but in addition, it’s clear from these commandments, this
teenager is suggesting little issues like in case you are requested to do one thing that advantages the Nazis or
right here it will be this administration, do dangerous work, work slowly, gum up the works, be a grain of
sand, grind the entire thing to a halt. And folks did that. And we don’t have to repair every part
that’s damaged, however we are able to do one small factor a day. We are able to do a pair small issues every week. We
can do one large factor. We are able to work up our braveness after doing plenty of little issues to do a giant
factor. I imply, that’s how this stuff work. And so, the commandments really feel so highly effective as a result of
they offer us permission to do the best factor.
JW: One of many nice issues in regards to the Danish resistance is not only that its measurement, however the number of
establishments that had been a part of it. When the order got here to deport all of the Jews from Denmark, the
state Lutheran Church had a sermon learn in each church supporting the Jews. 100
p.c of the ministers helped rescue the Jews, together with we’re instructed 90% of college college,
many of the medical doctors, you talked in regards to the function of the hospitals and hiding Jews and serving to them
flee. So completely different establishments with utterly completely different histories all did a special factor as an element
of this resistance. And what about humor? Did the Danes inform jokes about Hitler?
SSF: After all, as a result of fascists hate laughter greater than bombs – that’s a paraphrase. However I used to be
actually additionally impressed a number of years in the past by a ebook known as Pranksters vs. Autocrats, which is written
in regards to the Japanese European methodology of making dilemma actions, that are mainly simply making
wild enjoyable in all of the methods you could of these folks threatening to do these harms as a result of they
can’t deal with it. I imply, that’s the humorous factor about all of these things is mainly these are simply
folks with actually fragile egos who’re attempting to say their energy as a result of they don’t understand how
else to really feel necessary. Hannah Arendt wrote about that in Eichmann in Jerusalem, and I had learn
that in faculty. I don’t keep in mind this complete chapter on Denmark, or at the least a complete large
chunk of it about Denmark. And the outstanding factor, I imply it fills my coronary heart each time I even
discuss it that Hannah Hire wrote about was that past the issues we’ve talked about so
far, there’s additionally this phenomena that, I don’t know a phrase for it, however her form of concept was that the
German troopers, the SS troopers who had been stationed in Denmark over time, their perception system
was run down by this wall of morality that they had been confronted with daily, be it being made enjoyable
of daily as a result of definitely folks had been making enjoyable of all of the troopers stationed there each
single day, whether or not it was folks asking them, how do you reside with your self?
How are you doing this? And our rents thesis was that over time they began questioning their
personal morals and their very own perception programs and massive variety of German troopers stopped complying
with Hitler at that time.
JW: And also you assume it’s attainable that we may do one thing related with ICE brokers and with
native police, that as a substitute of throwing stuff at them, you say, discuss to them, ask them some
questions, and what do you counsel this tried dialog ought to be like?
SSF: There’s so many lovely movies on the market proper now of individuals filming ICE brokers, of
bodily getting in the way in which of them taking folks of all these numerous ways in which persons are
interfering with this machine and attempting to grind it to a halt. However the factor that you simply hear in nearly
each video is there can be some voice within the background saying’, do you have got a household?’ ‘How
do you reside with your self?’ ‘Why are you sporting that masks? What are you ashamed of?’ ‘If
you’re so pleased with this, present your face,’ no matter it’s. I believe it’s a part of a much bigger tactic, and I
personally am an enormous fan of the folks which are throwing glitter, glitter on the ICE brokers as a result of
glitter doesn’t come off and it’s a fairly good marker of somebody who’s as much as some severe evil.
JW: So proper now, ICE has this large funds to recruit tens of 1000’s of latest members.
They’re having a tough time. They’ve needed to enhance the sign-up bonus to $50,000. They’ve
lowered the admissions standards. I requested AI, how will you discourage folks from making use of for
the brand new ice jobs? And I wish to inform you the AI reply: “counter the recruiting message
campaigns: expose the realities, share firsthand accounts from former ICE staff to
spotlight the psychological toll, the ethical conflicts and public backlash related to the job.
Problem ICE’s recruitment slogan, ‘defend the homeland.’ with info about deportation charges,
household separations and civil rights issues. Undermine the attraction by highlighting profession threat,
stress, the long-term reputational injury of working for a controversial company. Emphasize the
potential for authorized scrutiny; expose inner points: level to the excessive burnout charges, inner
dissent and whistleblower circumstances. Share studies of poisonous office tradition.”
SSF: Wow, AI! I imply, that’s its personal set of commandments proper there. I’ve to imagine that
there’s a technique to contact folks caught up on this stuff. It’s so heartening to see this motion
constructing. Once I stood on the stage of the Girls’s March in 2017 in DC, that was lovely, however
I keep in mind considering, the place had been you all three months in the past? And the place will you all be a yr
from now? And I believe we’re lastly shifting in a course that’s constructing, which is the right
method. And I believe we are able to see the tides are shifting. We are able to see that it’s not easy, and it
definitely takes braveness, however like folks in Denmark, and I might say folks right here, it’s like, be
scared, however do it anyway, and do some bit. Obtain 5 Calls, have that be your very first thing
that you simply do, and simply that’s a fantastic app that tells you precisely who to name, what to say on what day.
I believe that braveness is contagious, and inertia is form of what permits this stuff to occur. Whereas
Denmark is so completely different from the us, it’s a tiny little nation. There’s this historical past. My nice
grandfather got here up with a time period known as samfundssind, which I’m saying completely flawed, nevertheless it
means “community-mindedness” and it’s a by means of line in Denmark, and positively they don’t do
every part completely. And there’s many issues that I’m dissatisfied in with my homeland proper
now, however there’s this undercurrent of ‘we defend one another, we handle one another, and that
everyone deserves equality and dignity.’ And I might say the factor that scares me slightly about
the US is we now have such a person, after all, like American exceptionalism and individualism
and all this. And I believe it’s time for us to cross that apart for now. We are able to revisit it and discuss
it later, however we don’t all must agree on every part proper now. However we do must agree that
each life is a universe. And that’s one thing that I used to be taught as a Jewish child, a Jewish socialist
child. Each life is a universe, and the onus is on us to guard that. And so after I take into consideration the
commandments, the Danish commandments, and may there be US commandments, I believe
that needs to be the by means of line. And there’s so many ways in which we are able to take motion.
JW: And I perceive you’re engaged on Ten Commandments for us proper now.
SSF: Yeah, it simply appeared form of apparent after I chanced on the commandments and I
instantly introduced them to all these organizers that I work with who I respect a lot, and
every with their very own space of experience. And we realized, oh, these commandments are so
relevant to the US if we simply mess around with the language slightly bit. After which as a result of we
get pleasure from know-how, which doesn’t at all times really feel like a profit, however for these functions it
could be. There’s loads of good issues we are able to do with know-how. We’re considering that there
may very well be a QR code that takes you to a useful resource web page with a menu of choices the place folks can,
once we take into consideration resistance, it appears like one thing it is advisable to know one thing about, or
it is advisable to have studied. You don’t. I take into consideration this on a regular basis. I’ve three children. When you’re a
mother and also you’ve organized a celebration, you know the way to arrange.
JW: One last item: the Danes resisted Hitler nearly unanimously. And since then, scientists inform
us that Danes are simply in regards to the happiest folks on this planet. These days they’ve ranked quantity two
on the World Happiness Index, in accordance with the scientists of world happiness. This yr, the
United States is quantity 24. And by the way in which, Mexico is quantity 10, far forward of the United
States. So the Danes are collectively, they handle one another, and it makes them glad.
SSF: Yeah, I imply, it’s not excellent, once more, and I don’t need everybody coming and screaming at me
about all of the ways in which Denmark is imperfect, I’m effectively conscious. However they’ve a really sturdy social
security community. And my nice grandfather, Prime Minister Stauning, was the primary working class
prime minister of Denmark. And he was the individual that type of introduced democratic socialism to
Denmark. And when you have got a baby, the daddy takes paternity go away, the mom will get sturdy
maternity go away, a nurse involves your own home with provides and checks in on you. My dad is
selecting to dwell the final many years of his life there with my mother, and he has some well being points.
There are folks begging to return to their home, to wash, to do bodily remedy, to drive him to
nature, no matter it’s. These are issues that we deserve, good issues, and we should dwell with
dignity and pleasure and equality.
And I’ve been engaged on the Mamdani marketing campaign in New York, and the evening of the first
was simply such a joyful evening, like pleasure I haven’t felt shortly politically. And I simply keep in mind
repeating to folks like, ‘look, we are able to have good issues. We are able to have good issues!’ And I simply
hope that people who find themselves socialism doubtful possibly take some time to do a little analysis as a result of
it’s truly a very lovely technique to dwell and makes folks really feel glad and seen, they usually wish to
handle one another as a result of that’s form of implicit to the entire system.
JW: Sarah Sophie Flicker – you may learn her fantastic article. “The Danes Resisted Fascism,
and So Can We,” at thenation.com, the place it was primary on the preferred listing all
weekend. Sarah, thanks for all of your work – and thanks for speaking with us at present.
SSF: Jon, thanks a lot. This has been actually fantastic.
[BREAK]
Jon Wiener: Donald Trump is demanding that UCLA pay a $1 billion tremendous as a penalty for
antisemitism on campus. That’s on high of a $584 million lower in grants his administration ordered,
largely for medical analysis. For remark, we flip to David Myers. He’s a distinguished
professor at UCLA the place he teaches Jewish historical past. He’s written for The LA Instances op-ed web page,
The Ahead, and The Atlantic, and he’s been an activist working for Mid-East Peace for
many years. David Myers, welcome again.
David Myers: Good to be with you Jon.
JW: A $1 billion tremendous for not doing sufficient to guard Jews on campus – why not $1 trillion? If
Trump actually cared about antisemitism, why let UCLA off the hook for a billion?
DM: [Laughter] You’re proper by that logic. Why accept a billion?
To ask a billion {dollars} of a public college is basically an act of actually breathtaking audacity, however I
assume it displays a technique to dismantle the outstanding edifice of upper training that has been
constructed up so fastidiously and efficiently over the course of centuries. In order to additional the political
agenda of the Trump regime.
JW: I wish to return to the start at UCLA, the Gaza encampment on campus. It was within the
plaza outdoors Powell Library. That’s what all this actually is about. It was up for a couple of week at
the top of April final yr, and there was that horrible evening of violence. You and I talked about it
right here proper afterwards.
DM: April 30 th .
JW: April thirtieth, 2024, a mob of Zionist militants got here from off campus and attacked the
encampment. Remind us what occurred.
DM: April twenty eighth, which was a Sunday, there was a counter demonstration, pro-Israel counter
demonstration straight throughout from the pro-Palestine Gaza encampment, and already there noticed
on the fringes of the 2 encampments tensions starting to boil over. I used to be current for hours,
actually attempting to separate the 2 teams. The far better a part of hostility got here from the pro-Israel
facet when it comes to what I skilled, and in some sense, this was possibly for some, type of a
testing of the capability to harass — and within the subsequent two days, to really undertake vital acts
of violence towards the pro-Palestine encampment — as a result of that’s what we noticed two days later.
In any occasion, what did occur on the thirtieth is {that a} group of violent pro-Israel thugs set
themselves upon the encampment, tearing down a few of its partitions, throwing in smoke bombs,
beating folks with wood planks in addition to their fists.
And actually remarkably, they had been permitted to take action for nearly 4 hours with none police
intervention, despite the fact that there was a contingent of College of California police observing
from a distance. It’s ironic that what has emerged out of all that we now have been speaking about so
far, and we’ll discuss, is the allegation of antisemitism. I imagine that there have been acts of
antisemitism on our campus within the aftermath of October seventh, 2023, and I additionally imagine that there
had been acts of anti-Palestinian discrimination on our campus after October seventh. What occurred on
April thirtieth, 2024, was by far essentially the most egregious act of harassment and intimidation that I’ve
witnessed in my profession at UCLA, in my 34 years at UCLA, and positively in that horrible interval
that started with10/7.
JW: After the encampment was taken down by the police, a small group of Jewish college students and
one Jewish professor sued the college, and the Trump Justice Division investigated, and
concluded that “Jewish and Israeli college students at UCLA had been subjected to extreme, pervasive and
objectively offensive harassment that created a hostile setting by members of the
encampment.” I’m certain you understand this by coronary heart by now. And this was a violation of the
Structure’s Equal Safety Clause and in addition a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1965 Title
VI. I ponder when you agree with that and with the Division of Justice assertion that, even after
Jewish college students complained of a ‘hostile setting,’ UCLA acted with “deliberate
indifference” in direction of Jewish college students. and that the result’s that UCLA is responsible of “placing
Jewish Individuals in danger.”
DM: That wasn’t what I noticed on campus, and that’s not what I understood to be the case. As
I took a step again and tried to research what had gone on, I imagine that there have been acts of
antisemitism. Essentially the most memorable one which involves thoughts is a papier-mâché pig holding a bag
of cash and a figurine in a kaffiyeh in cage with a Star of David on the backside of the papier-
mâché statue, positioned out in entrance of the assembly of the Board of Regents.
So I believe there have been certainly episodes like that and different cases during which pro-Israel college students
had been subjected to harassment or required to divert their path to a category by going across the
Royce Quad. I believe these issues did happen, and I’m not in settlement with the methods that
had been mirrored in them, however between that and the declare that they’re ‘severe and pervasive
antisemitism,’ there’s a substantial distance and that I didn’t see.
I didn’t see the pervasiveness of it. I noticed what I might think about egregious acts of antisemitism,
albeit very remoted, and the entire narrative of the continued steady, pervasive, unrelenting
nature of anti-Jewish harassment and intimidation will not be one thing that I noticed, or heard of from
the scholars with whom I spoke. And so, I used to be shocked by the character of the claims made by the
three college students and professor within the lawsuit.
I used to be additionally shocked that there was a type of conflation between their dedication to Zionism
and what they described as their non secular religion, as if the 2 had been an identical, one thing which
actually stood on the heart of that lawsuit. And I used to be shocked, frankly, at some stage that UCLA
agreed to settle, at one other stage, not. Insofar because the query of whether or not there was benefit to those
claims of great pervasive discrimination, I’m fairly skeptical about that. Insofar as UCLA
wished to place an finish to the lawsuit and show its bona fides in combating antisemitism. I
utterly perceive it.
The nice irony is that, hours after the settlement was introduced, the Division of Justice
issued letter telling UCLA that it had deliberate to chop $584 million of analysis funds enormously
vital to the wellbeing of the college — and for that matter, the wellbeing of our metropolis and
nation, as a result of a lot of that cash was going to medical analysis. In order that sequencing of the
settlement announcement after which the DOJ continuing with this huge punitive act towards
UCLA leads one to ponder what may the attainable motivation be, if not one thing aside from
combating antisemitism.
JW: One different factor in regards to the DOJ discovering: they concluded that UCLA allowed pro-Palestinian
activists to “implement” what it termed a “Jew exclusion zone,” specifically the encampment outdoors the
library. Now, my understanding is that Jews weren’t excluded from the encampment. Numerous
Jews joined the encampment, as a result of they help Palestinian rights, they usually opposed what the
Netanyahu authorities was doing in Gaza. So what about this DOJ discovering of a ‘Jew exclusion
zone’ at UCLA?
DM: Effectively, I believe you’ve hit the nail on the top by calling the truth that there are a lot of Jews in
the encampment — and lots of Jews who had been encampment-adjacent, who felt appreciable
sympathy with the pro-Palestine motion however could not have been within the encampment. And that
I believe bespeaks the variety of opinion throughout the Jewish group round Israel-Palestine
and the publish 10/7 world. And so typically on this discourse that has emerged, the main focus is solely
on those that characterize the pro-Israel place. Had been individuals who had been identifiably pro-Israel
prevented from having access to the encampment? I imagine they had been. Had been folks topic to
questioning about their political views with a view to get into the encampment or the methods during which
they may or won’t behave effectively within the encampment? I imagine they had been. Was it a major
inconvenience? Yeah, it relies upon the way you perceive vital. However yeah, folks needed to go
across the Royce quad in the event that they didn’t cross, in the event that they weren’t prepared to cross by means of the entry level
of the encampment, that was an inconvenience.
JW: Now, I perceive that this isn’t the one time that college students have been pressured to stroll
round one thing with a view to get to their vacation spot. There are film shoots at UCLA typically that
require—
DM: Building – there are film websites on a regular basis. So was it an inconvenience? Sure, I believe it
was. Did it quantity to ‘pervasive and extreme antisemitism’? My very own sense is not any, it didn’t. Had been
there acts of antisemitism on our campus on this interval? There have been. Was it pervasive and
severe? I don’t assume that case could be made.
JW: In order you stated, UCLA agreed to settle this case. They paid three Jewish college students and a
medical college professor six and a half million {dollars}, though the cash went to all types of
Jewish organizations, not simply to them.
After which as you say, Trump lower federal funding to UCLA analysis by $584 million as a
punishment–he says for the harassment across the encampment that some Jewish college students
reported. The medical researchers after all, who’ve had their funding suspended, didn’t have
something to do with the Gaza encampment, and lots of of them actually are Jewish themselves.
Amongst these whose grants had been lower, in accordance with The L.A. Instances, was Judea Pearl, a UCLA
pc scientist, the principal investigator of a $1.2 million suspended grant to use genetics
to massive scale digital well being information. He stated, “I’ve been a principal investigator for NSF for
possibly 50 years.” Who’s Judea Pearl?
DM: Judea Pearl is a distinguished pc scientist, longstanding member of the college, and
father of the murdered Wall Avenue Journal journalist Daniel Pearl, who was brutally killed in
Pakistan by terrorists. And Professor Pearl has been a really sturdy advocate for Israel, for
Zionism and for the place that antisemitism is a really significant issue on our campus and he
himself — I had some alternate with him — believes that this try and shake down the
college has no benefit. He definitely would love the college to do extra to fight what he sees
as antisemitism, however even somebody from his perspective, so far as I perceive it, believes that
there’s no connection between the try and tremendous the college a billion {dollars} or lower $584
million in analysis grants and the try and fight antisemitism.
It’s what I consider as a conceptual non-sequitur. It doesn’t make any sense. There’s no evident
connection between the 2 propositions. It appears, as I stated on the outset, to be a case of attempting to
deliver the college to heel with a view to advance a political agenda, which is to take away a really
vital bastion of liberal democratic values at a time of what appears to be a type of takeover
of the American democratic method. Imperfect as it’s. However at this level we should always battle for it — to
the final.
JW: So the governor stated the state will battle the one billion tremendous and the $584 million cuts in
analysis funding with lawsuits. However there’s additionally some discuss from the workplace of the president of the
college about negotiating with Trump’s folks in the hunt for a settlement. After all, Columbia
agreed to pay the Trump administration $220 million. Harvard is in courtroom and in addition in negotiations
over a settlement. And The New York Instances reported on Tuesday they had been contemplating paying
Trump $500 million. However after all, these are personal universities with endowments within the
billions. UCLA is a public, taxpayer supported college. UCLA argued in federal courtroom in San
Francisco simply on Tuesday, that what Trump is doing is unlawful and unconstitutional. And it’s the
identical argument has been made by dozens of legal professionals and located to have benefit by dozens of
federal judges — that it’s towards the regulation for the president to refuse to spend funds appropriated
by Congress, specifically the analysis funds that he has lower – that’s clearly unlawful. The president simply
lacks this authority, and the courts agree with that interpretation of the regulation, however that’s going to
take some time: The federal government will then attraction this, and it’ll get to the Supreme Court docket, I dunno, in
2026 or one thing like that. And within the meantime, 1800 NIH grants are suspended. Can UCLA
wait till 2026 or 2027 for this to be resolved?
DM: Not with out paying an infinite value and never with out huge value to the general public, which
would be the principal sufferer of this legal operation. It’s actually onerous to see how we go on with
that huge loss. We are going to discover a method. I’ll say that UCLA is an aggregation of among the
best scholarly expertise that I’ve ever witnessed in my life, at each nook of the college. And
folks I believe are feeling directly deeply dismayed by this assault upon such an necessary pillar
of upper training in the USA, and on the identical time fairly resilient. We’re not going to
undergo the try and tear down our college.
JW: The LA Instances report on the litigation had a subhead, “negotiation nonetheless attainable.” The
various, after all, is a deal. You referred to the deal that Harvard is about to make. We’re
instructed Harvard would agree this deal: Harvard would comply with pay $500 million, to not the
authorities straight, the way in which Columbia’s deal works, however that Harvard would comply with spend
$500 million on vocational packages and analysis. And as well as, Harvard would see its
analysis funding restored and keep away from the appointment of a Trump monitor. Vital targets. Of
course, Harvard has a what? 60-something billion-dollar endowment. UCLA is a public
establishment supported by taxpayers by means of the legislature and the governor. Are you able to think about
UCLA making a deal just like the one Harvard is engaged on? What would this be? UCLA would
give hundreds of thousands of {dollars} to LA Commerce Tech School, or one thing like that?
DM: Effectively, supporting vocational training is a worthy trigger and I encourage the federal
authorities to do this with the sources that it collects from us within the regular methods, not by
shaking down establishments and actually trying to cripple them within the identify of this very patently
clear political agenda.
I believe given the way in which issues have gone with different establishments, that there can be some
settlement. My fervent hope is that it’s not on the stage of what has been mentioned in Harvard’s
case — a half a billion {dollars} – as a result of, whereas Harvard has a 53 or 54 billion endowment, we
have nowhere close to that.
I additionally must say that it’s simply patently flawed that we’re compelled to accede to those completely
outlandish, audacious and baseless claims.
And but in the way in which issues have been unfolding, he has large leverage. He’s an enormously
highly effective president, maybe essentially the most highly effective in all of American historical past. He’s arrogated to
himself all kinds of rights that don’t belong to the manager. I worry that on this setting, a
settlement can be reached, and will probably be very massive. California is a giant goal. UCLA is a high charge
of public college in the USA. It’s a win. These should not simply moneymaking propositions
for Trump. These are enormously vital symbolically. When you take down Harvard and also you
take down UCLA, you have got considerably disabled larger training in the USA. It’d be
very onerous for any establishments after that to withstand.
JW: And there’s one different drawback with making a cope with Trump. We all know that negotiating
with Trump doesn’t finish with making a deal. Even in his actual property days, banks stopped wanting
to cope with him as a result of offers with Trump are only one extra step within the negotiation. And the
concept that it is a regular settlement the place either side fulfill their tasks, this has not
utilized to Trump prior to now. So I don’t fairly see the place the boldness comes at Columbia or
Harvard or Brown or any of those different locations that they’re truly going to get their cash. OR
possibly Trump will give you new findings of latest offenses. What do you assume?
DM: I’ve no confidence that he received’t proceed to litigate it time and again and declare
violations and subsequently withhold funds. He could also be a grasp of the artwork of the deal as he
understands it, however he’s not somebody who respects the ethics of a deal making in any respect. Which means
you interact in troublesome, typically brutal negotiations, you shake arms, and it’s over. And as you stated,
that’s simply not the way in which he operates. And there’s one thing enormously unethical in his model of
deal making.
And I might say I’m not solely scared of the truth that there received’t be continued calls for made on
establishments which have already agreed to settlements, however there’ll be steady calls for that there
be displays over the operation of analysis and scholarship at our establishments. Some establishments
have made offers to stall the potential of having displays imposed on this or that area of
their scholarly operation. I’m under no circumstances satisfied that that demand can be surrendered. I believe
behind Trump there’s somebody who has a imaginative and prescient which is extra than simply moneymaking. It’s
actually in regards to the reverse of viewpoint range as they so typically declare, it’s viewpoint uniformity,
what the left is at all times accused of. I believe that’s actually what they’re after. And if displays are an
efficient technique to obtain that, I’m fairly satisfied that we’ll see that in our time.
So I’ve no confidence that the offers which are made, both on monetary phrases or when it comes to the
diploma of scholarly supervision, mental supervision can be upheld on their finish.
JW: You’re a part of a bunch known as Jewish Bruins in protection of UCLA that has simply been
organized. Inform us about this group and about your open letter.
DM: Yeah, so actually only a small variety of folks with whom I spoke simply this previous weekend felt
it was necessary in symbolic phrases to show to the broader public that, as Jews, as proud
Jewish members of the UCLA group, we don’t settle for the phrases which were imposed
upon UCLA — that in alternate for repairing some damaged system that allows antisemitism, we
ought to pay a billion {dollars} in fines. We don’t settle for that paying the USA authorities at
this cut-off date will do something to decrease antisemitism on our campus or in society. And at
the identical time, we don’t settle for that antisemitism is raging and rampant on our campuses. So we
put collectively a letter. And right here I’ve to say that our intention was to attraction to folks from my
perspective to Judea Pearl’s perspective. So we didn’t discuss whether or not we predict antisemitism is
or will not be a severe and pervasive drawback. We simply stated we discover the affiliation made between this
request for a billion {dollars} and claims of antisemitism on campus to be specious. And we simply
put the letter out yesterday and we now have a number of hundred signatories. And if persons are
in signing on, you probably have a connection to UCLA, you may go to my Fb web page and discover that
letter and I encourage you to signal it.
JW: The web site is named ‘Jewish Bruins in protection of UCLA.’ It’s a Google doc. Right here’s the
hyperlink: http://www.websites.google.com/view/jewishbruins – one phrase.
DM: I believe it is crucial that we rise up. We as Jews rise up in protection of UCLA.
JW: David Myers – he’s a distinguished professor at UCLA who teaches Jewish historical past. David,
thanks for all of your work, and thanks for speaking with us at present.
DM: It’s at all times good to be with you, Jon.
