Jon Wiener: From The Nation journal, that is Begin Making Sense. I’m Jon Wiener. Later within the present: The People who fought in World Conflict II have been referred to as “the best technology,” however historian David Nasaw argues that it’s extra acceptable to treat them as “the wounded technology.” He’ll clarify, later within the present. However first: Home Republicans defied Trump on releasing the Epstein information, and he conceded defeat. John Nichols has our evaluation – in a minute.
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We’re nonetheless enthusiastic about the Home vote on Tuesday to launch the Epstein information. It was nearly unanimous – after practically a yr of Trump doing all the things he may to forestall that vote. For remark and evaluation, we flip to John Nichols. After all, he’s govt editor of The Nation. John, welcome again,
John Nichols: Jon, it’s nice to be with you. Who would’ve thought that we’d be devoting our time to speaking about this?
JW: [LAUGHTER] Trump caved on Sunday evening after studying that greater than 100 Republican Home members had been ready to vote towards him and in favor of releasing the information. As much as that time, Home Republicans had achieved just about all the things Trump needed since he took workplace final January. I’ve been enthusiastic about what modified over the weekend to result in this dramatic defeat of Trump, not by the hands of the Democrats, however by the hands of the Home Republicans.
I believe it started within the Senate when these eight Democrats joined Republicans and voted to finish the federal government shutdown. In the meantime, within the Home, speaker Mike Johnson had been refusing to convene the Home for greater than a month to keep away from taking on the Epstein information. However now the Home needed to convene — to vote for the non permanent price range that the Senate was sending them. And as soon as they got here again to work, a few Republicans joined Democrats in signing that discharge petition to pressure a vote on releasing the Epstein information, and much more Republicans mentioned they might vote sure. So what started as a Democratic give up to Trump on the shutdown ended up as a Democratic triumph pushing home Republicans to defy their president on the Epstein information. Is that this the best way you see it? Am I lacking one thing right here?
JN: Nicely, you’re a really cynical man, Jon. Clearly you’re seeing all these calculations and issues occurring, though I sort of had the identical sense you had. However the one place the place I might disagree with you is that you just mentioned, properly, Trump discovered that as many as 100 Republicans had been going to vote towards him. Clearly, that bothered him — as a result of Donald Trump desires to steer the parade, and if he sees the parade going one other path, what does Donald Trump do? He runs as quick as he can to get in entrance of it.
However I don’t suppose it was 100 Republicans. I believe it was one. I believe it was Marjorie Taylor Greene, doing these interviews. She didn’t blink, and that’s the fascinating factor. He referred to as her a traitor. He mainly learn her out of the celebration. And she or he went proper again on and saved doing extra of these interviews, extra of these statements. After Trump, she might be the best communicator within the Republican celebration, and she or he was going towards him. He can have all these different Republicans saying issues. I believe when he noticed her going repeatedly on TV being completely unblinking in her stance on the Epstein information, that, I believe he felt, ‘wow, I’ve bought an issue.’ When Donald Trump has an issue, he tries to do away with it. He initially tried to do away with it by studying Inexperienced out of the celebration. When that didn’t work, he ran to the entrance of the parade.
JW: I’ve one easy query about these occasions: these paperwork, the Epstein information, are beneath Trump’s management within the Justice Division. He may himself get them organized launched and keep away from this complete vote. Isn’t it worse for Trump to have each Republican within the Home voting? The best way to get in entrance of the parade is to get in entrance of the parade, and launch the paperwork, it appears to me.
JN: The query turns into, will these paperwork be launched? You recognize what I’m saying?
JW: Yeah.
JN: If certainly it turns into a PR drawback, proper? That you just’ve bought Marjorie Taylor Inexperienced doing what she’s doing, bought different Republicans saying, we’re going to interrupt with the man, it’s clear you’re going to lose a vote. Is it higher to say, ‘yeah, go forward, vote. Should you vote unanimously to launch him, that’s advantageous by me. I’m all good with that.’ Is it higher to have mentioned that very publicly after which have maybe, and I don’t know if this may occur, however maybe the Senate run into some conundrums on this regard, have maybe the Legal professional Common discover challenges with releasing all the things, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
I discover myself in a really bizarre place right here, Jon, of quoting Marjorie Taylor Greene. She mentioned at this time at a press convention the place she appeared with lots of the folks we must be speaking in regards to the very brave younger ladies who saved this situation on the entrance burner. She mentioned, ‘this isn’t the top. That is just the start.’ I believe there’s nonetheless a number of wrangling on this. I believe Donald Trump is aware of there’s going to be a number of wrangling and felt that this was a great way to get as far forward of it as he may, and but there nonetheless could also be fairly a little bit of wrestle on the subject of what comes out. And by the best way, it is a problem for him. It’s additionally a problem for some Democrats, so there’s a number of political maneuvering that may but be seen on this.
JW: Yeah. I used to be fascinated to see in The Washington Submit, they quoted an unnamed White Home official who mentioned, ‘Trump will survive this storm,’ they usually in contrast it to cite his ‘being shot in an assassination try.’ I believed, wow, wow. Is the Home vote on releasing the Epstein information actually like an assassination try? They suppose this, some folks over there at the very least suppose that is actually large.
JN: Nicely, the Trump White Home, the president and others, have tried very, very onerous to not have this occur, proper?
JW: Yeah.
JN: They actually, historians are going to take a look at this era in time, they usually’re going to say, ‘you’re kidding me,’ proper? US Home of Representatives went on hiatus for months in very, very important occasions on the planet apparently, since you didn’t wish to seat some newly elected member of the home from Arizona who would tip the stability on the Epstein file debate. That’s weird.
Donald Trump, since about mid-October, has had a extremely awful time of it politically. The No King’s demonstrations had been enormous. They’re beneath lined, beneath understood by a lot of our media. However the reality is that when folks in small cities and small cities and concrete areas throughout this nation come out within the thousands and thousands to protest towards the sitting president, that’s not good. After which when you might have a sequence of elections as you probably did on November 4th throughout the nation in city, rural, north, south, east, west, and each place, the Republican Occasion loses all the things? That’s not good. And while you’ve been working to maintain one situation from arising and taking heart stage for a really, very very long time, and it arises, takes heart stage and is actually, breathlessly lined by all of the networks, that’s not good.
As Barbara Boxer, the previous senator from California mentioned, I believe we’ll see this as the purpose at which the threads began to return aside. It’s not about the entire of politics. It’s about Trump’s management over the Republican celebration.
JW: Yeah. Let me level to a few different circumstances that add to that image. The Senate Republicans additionally, along with the Home Republicans defying him on the information, the Senate Republicans on the price range refused repeatedly to do what he was telling them to do, which was abolished the filibuster. So you’ll be able to simply vote for the price range. Then there could be a Republican majority and Trump would hope they might do no matter he needed them to do. The Senate Republicans refused to do what Trump advised them repeatedly and in public to do, and as a substitute recruited eight Democrats.
And within the state legislatures, there’ve been some fascinating developments that haven’t gotten as a lot consideration–over Trump’s calls for that they proceed to gerrymander and create extra Republican Home seats so the Republicans received’t lose management of the Home subsequent yr. Texas, in fact, created 5, Missouri created yet one more Republican seat, North Carolina apparently this week could create one new pink district.
However Indiana–this to me is thoughts boggling—Indiana’s Republican-dominated state legislature rejected Trump’s demand and has refused to enter a particular session to redistrict the state. Trump mentioned they might create two new Republican districts, abolishing each Democratic seat within the state of Indiana. This was regardless of JD Vance himself visiting the state twice to stress the Republican legislators to do that, and Trump himself calling on the telephone and twisting arms that method.
Indiana has been a deeply pink state our complete lifetime right here. The Republicans have a super-majority within the Indiana legislature. What’s going on in Indiana? Are you able to clarify this?
JN: I can clarify all of it, Jon. I hope I can simply carry on prime of all the weather of your query. Before everything, if you happen to’re making an attempt to persuade Indiana to do something, don’t ship a man from Ohio. So the truth that JD Vance didn’t persuade Indianans of something is no surprise in any respect. That’s primary. Quantity two, the Senate on the filibuster. At what level do senators resolve that they just like the filibuster? It’s on the day after they suppose they might not be ceaselessly in cost. Earlier this yr, checked out a circumstance the place they thought they had been going to only maintain the Senate, possibly even develop their majority. They’re now a way more susceptible scenario. They’re polls from locations like Alaska the place Democrats are literally displaying viability from Ohio the place Democrats, Sharrod Brown is narrowly forward, at the very least in some polling the place from Maine, the place you’re beginning to see proof that Susan Collins may very well be overwhelmed from North Carolina the place you’ve bought at the very least an honest likelihood that an excellent likelihood, I might say.
JW:An excellent likelihood, I might say.
JN: So what are we speaking about right here? We’re truly speaking about all of the sudden Republican senators are pondering, man, we may find yourself in a scenario the place we’d just like the filibuster. In order that’s quantity two.
However quantity three, that is probably the most fascinating factor of all, since you deliver up the gerrymandering district line battle, and Trump thought that was only a certain route. You’re going to return by means of and also you’re going to make all these states redraw and all the things’s going to prove advantageous. There at the moment are analyses that counsel that with the California transfer with potential strikes in Maryland and a pair different states, and with the truth that in Ohio and in I consider Missouri, you’ll be able to petition onto the poll a problem to redraws.
JW: Sure. In Missouri, you might be proper. In Missouri, the Democrats are campaigning proper now to qualify –they’ve nearly sufficient signatures to qualify a referendum that may reverse the state legislature’s creating of an extra Republican district.
JN: So you bought all these parts, proper? After which you might have the ingredient that in a few of these redraws, even in Texas, they made Republican seats extra susceptible, and if there’s a large enough shift, there may very well be some political challenges there. What all of it provides as much as is, sensible analysts at the moment are saying, that all the things Trump has achieved all of this may yield a seat or so for the Republicans, not some large shift. And if that’s the case, Jon, then what we’re actually is a scenario the place if Democrats do properly in 2026, all of those efforts by Donald Trump, all these efforts by Donald Trump to shake it up won’t have labored.
That circles us round to the start of our dialog as a result of we’re actually is a scenario the place Republicans have to start out asking themselves, ‘how carefully do I wish to be aligned with Donald Trump?’ And that’s the place politics shifts.
JW: I’ve studied up on one different case in some methods much more wonderful than Indiana. Florida is a spot the place Ron DeSantis desires the state legislature–following Trump’s calls for–to gerrymander and create, they are saying, between two and 4 extra Republican districts. The Republican state legislature could be very unwilling proper now to fulfill to do that. A ballot in September discovered that solely 36% of Florida Republican voters help redistricting now, and the Republican leaders are very nervous after what occurred in Virginia in New Jersey, that certainly they could lose a number of younger folks, ladies and Latinos to the Democrats, particularly in southern Florida, even Florida.
JN: Nicely, polling knowledge exhibits that Trump’s numbers amongst Latinos began to go method down. In order that’s a really important factor. Quantity two, are you aware what folks do in Florida? Transfer.
JW: They transfer.
JN: They bodily transfer from one place to a different. They do, quite a bit, and new folks transfer in and issues like that. So gerrymandering in Florida is totally different than in different states. You are able to do it. There’s no query you are able to do it, however it might additionally blow up on you. I’ve talked to a number of Florida Democrats and Republicans, they usually at all times perceive it as considerably of a extra harmful recreation in such a dynamic state as in comparison with states the place the traces are fairly secure as a result of folks don’t transfer as a lot. Pennsylvania is a basic on that, and so finish result’s, I’m not shocked that there’s resistance, and each time this occurs, it’s met with a risk from Trump.
He says, ‘oh, I’m going to major the state senate chief in Indiana.’ ‘I’m try to get this legislator knocked out in Florida.’ Perhaps he can pull that off.
However on the finish of the day, if that’s the place Donald Trump is targeted going into 2026, the Democrats may as properly begin to lay up the champagne, as a result of in case your opponent is obsessively simply making an attempt to punish the folks that didn’t give him what he needed to try to shore up a comparatively shaky place anyway, if Democrats run on elementary points, as I believe a number of ’em did on November 4th, their potential turns into a lot better. And so what we’re now’s within the historical past of this period, I believe there’s an excellent likelihood that there’s a chapter on the October, November, December of 2025 that implies that that is the place it shifted. That is the place the pivot got here, and that the potential, not the understanding by any means, these are such risky occasions, however the potential for an actual pushback and really electoral accountability for Donald Trump turned actual.
JW: That is the place the pushback turned actual. John Nichols, learn him at thenation.com. John, thanks for speaking with us at this time.
JN: Nice honor to be with you, Jon. Thanks a lot.
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Jon Wiener: The People who fought in World Conflict II have been referred to as “the best technology,” however historian David Nasaw thinks it’s extra acceptable to treat them as “the wounded technology.” That’s the title of his new ebook about coming dwelling after World Conflict II. David is an award-winning biographer of Andrew Carnegie, Joseph Kennedy, and William Randolph Hearst, and his most up-to-date ebook, The Final Million, is about Europe’s displaced individuals after World Conflict II. It was named the Greatest Guide of the Yr by NPR, Kirkus, Historical past As we speak – it’s considered one of my favorites, we talked about it right here. He additionally writes for The New York Occasions and The Nation. Final time he was right here, we talked about Elon Musk. David, welcome again.
David Nasaw: Thanks. Good to be right here.
JW: Your ebook is about coming dwelling after World Conflict II, however the first 150 pages are in regards to the warfare itself and about ready to be demobilized. There was a number of ready.
DN: Yeah, there was 16.4 million servicemen and girls fought in World Conflict II. On the finish of the warfare, there have been greater than 12 million, 3 quarters of them abroad. It takes a number of ships, a number of the logistics to get ’em again to america, so it took a very long time to get ’em again.
Certainly one of my favourite components of my analysis was in regards to the moms’ golf equipment — as a result of the wives of the servicemen, the moms of the servicemen’s kids, and the moms of the servicemen, had been outraged on the delay. They usually shaped golf equipment everywhere in the nation, they usually petitioned and marched in entrance of their congressman’s workplace. They went to Washington. They waylaid Eisenhower, who was then chief of workers as he was giving, added a congressional investigation, they usually demanded that the lads come dwelling straight away in one of many uncommon situations the place public opinion and protests work.
Truman, who needed an enormous military of occupation instantly after the warfare needed to pull again. And the Conflict Division determined that they couldn’t face up to public opinion, they usually withdrew extra troopers quicker from Europe and from the Pacific than they needed to.
JW: You talked in regards to the wives and the moms wanting their boys dwelling quick. However you additionally present there was a specific amount of apprehension on the house entrance in regards to the return of husbands and sons and boyfriends.
DN: Blended with the jubilation that the warfare was over that we had received, that the blokes had been coming dwelling was this foreboding that they’d been taught to kill. They’d been taught to rejoice violence. They’d been in male solely models for 1, 2, 3, 4 years. And the fears had been that they had been going to deliver the warfare dwelling with them, they usually had been going to deliver the violence dwelling with them, they usually had been going to deliver this macho warrior ethos and behaviors again with them.
JW: And naturally, we all know that some, possibly many did “deliver the warfare dwelling with them.” It’s what we now referred to as PTSD, Submit-Traumatic Stress Dysfunction. How was it outlined and the way was it handled after World Conflict II?
DN: Actually thousands and thousands, what number of thousands and thousands we don’t know, of servicemen and girls got here again, offended, depressed, anxious, crammed with sudden rages that they couldn’t management, unable to sleep at evening, flashbacks. They had been advised by the navy and by the navy medical institution that this was some type of fight fatigue. Nicely, if you happen to name one thing fatigue, then the remedy is relaxation and time, but it surely didn’t work that method. And these males, and once more, and a few ladies, together with some donut dollies who had served refreshments simply off the entrance line to males in Europe, they got here again with this stress and dysfunction. What the VA and the navy institution mentioned was, “look, in the event that they don’t have any wounds on their our bodies, we’ll do what we are able to. However you, their family members, their moms, their wives, their girlfriends, it’s a must to deal with these guys. It’s as much as you to make them really feel at dwelling and to assist them within the readjustment.”
JW: And for individuals who had been, let’s say, severely affected by fight fatigue, there have been “medical remedies.”
DN: The VA tried to make use of the most recent medical information, strategies to deal with these males. There have been no medication obtainable on the time. There have been no drugs. So when relaxation didn’t assist, probably the most severely depressed, probably the most severely anxious, the recourse was to electroshock remedy. Electroshock remedy 80 years later may also help some folks, however 80 years in the past within the infancy of electroshock remedy, it didn’t. There have been non permanent alleviations of the ache and the struggling, but it surely didn’t final lengthy and when the blokes couldn’t recuperate, the following step was what medical science on the time mentioned was the final resort, however the one which labored, lobotomies, and hundreds of servicemen had been lobotomized.
JW: I believe it’s best to simply clarify what that’s in case a couple of of our listeners don’t know.
DN: Lobotomy was to chop away a part of the mind. At first, it was achieved in surgical procedure and shortly afterwards, as a result of the variety of veterans who had been prescribed lobotomies was too nice to have a surgeon obtainable, a brand new approach was found, and that was to insert a pointed scalpel into the proper above the eyes and to scrape away a part of the mind. The consequence was a numbing and a lack of speech, a lack of bodily and psychological skill. However the traumatized had been completely sedated, and that’s what lobotomy was presupposed to do.
JW: To alter keys right here and have a look at the brilliant facet, the achievements of the return dwelling, in fact, the GI Invoice on the prime of the record handed first in June, 1944. Historians train it as sort of the creation of an American welfare state for veterans, notably free lifetime medical care by the Veterans Administration. The VA up up to now, had not offered free lifetime medical care. They handled warfare wounds. However now there was actually what we now have to name socialized drugs. The federal government ran the hospitals, the federal government employed the medical doctors, and if you happen to had been a vet, you would be handled. After all, there was aggregation of VA hospitals. However what along with this lifetime medical care did the GI Invoice embody?
DN: The GI Invoice was probably the most important laws that was handed within the twentieth century. It created probably the most intensive social welfare system that the world had ever seen, better than what was the beverage plan? What was occurring in England better than what had existed in Germany earlier. It was extraordinary, but it surely was for veterans, and it was written in such a method that it was for white male veterans solely. White male veterans bought particular unemployment insurance coverage for a yr. They bought faculty tuition for 4 years or tuition and residing allowances to go to a vocational college for 4 years. They bought mortgage ensures. Should you may get a mortgage out of your native financial institution, it will be assured by the federal authorities, which meant that the native financial institution was greater than keen to provide it to you. And the federal authorities mentioned, put a cap on what the rate of interest may very well be.
The GI invoice created, and that is, I believed it was an exaggeration, but it surely’s not. It created a brand new center class. It expanded the center class. It was the primary time in our historical past that people and households may soar a category from working class to center class. And that included immigrants and the youngsters of immigrants who had been omitted of – or needed to wrestle to get into that center class. And there have been many who mentioned that this could be step one in the direction of a social welfare program for all People. Roosevelt repeated himself over and over and over. He had mentioned, we’re all on this warfare. Youngsters on the house entrance, ladies who go into the factories. It is a warfare fought not just by the lads in uniform, however by the entire nation. And there was a motion to make use of the GI Invoice as step one in the direction of a social welfare program. By no means occurred.
JW: There was one different limitation. You’ve already talked about it. Black folks had been largely excluded from a number of the advantages. Black navy veterans may get medical remedy at VA hospitals, however they had been segregated and suffered what’s politely referred to as “disparities in care and staffing.” However in some methods, it was the housing program that created the best wealth hole between white and Black veterans.
DN: Yeah, veterans, after they got here again, thought that they had been going to get mortgages. Nicely, they weren’t going to get mortgages. They had been going to get mortgage ensures. With a purpose to get a assure, you needed to get a mortgage. The place’d you get the mortgage? out of your native financial institution. So that you’re a Black veteran in Mississippi. While you go into your native financial institution and also you say, “I desire a mortgage to purchase a home,” you’re not going to get it. Should you’re a Black veteran in Newark or Minneapolis, the probabilities are you’re not going to get that mortgage. If you’re a lady, a WAC, or a WAVE, or somebody who had labored within the Purple Cross, you’re not going to get a mortgage out of your native financial institution. What the mortgage ensures do from 19 – late forties by means of the fifties is that they supply the capital that’s wanted to purchase personal single-family properties.
And in america of America, outdoors the highest 5%, most People, the best asset they’ve is their dwelling. And what the federal authorities, what the VA did by means of the GI Invoice, was to provide white male veterans a house. And finally that funding, that asset turned so priceless that you would ship your youngsters to varsity, that you would have financial savings, that you would purchase a second automobile to place in your storage. The revenue and wealth disparities, gender and racial disparities that had begun to shrink in the course of the World Conflict and a bit of bit in the course of the melancholy had been exacerbated by these items given to the white veterans. And that disparity would final for generations to return.
JW: Certainly one of my favourite components of your ebook was that the GI Invoice, you write, led to a postwar renaissance within the American arts, as a result of vets may go, to not only a faculty or vocational college, they might go to artwork college, they might examine portray and music. And people who did–I imply, the record is mind-boggling: Robert Rauschenberg, Roy Lichtenstein, Ellsworth Kelly, Donald Judd, Cy Twombly, Noah Purifoy — right here in LA. Noah Purifoy is an enormous hero. He based the Watts Towers Artwork Middle. Beneath the GI Invoice, he went to Chouinard Artwork Faculty, which finally turned Cal Arts.
And Harry Belafonte!
DN: And Walter Matthau, and Tony Curtis and Tony Bennett, Paul Newman, John Coltrane, Tito Puente, Dave Brubeck. What’s most exceptional is that a number of the instructors within the artwork faculties and the music faculties and dance and in performing had been German and Jap European refugees from Hitler. American tradition modified dramatically due to the GI Invoice and the schooling and the instruction of their arts that the GIs obtained on coming back from abroad locations.
JW: One last item: for these of us who’re previous, it is a ebook about our fathers. You dedicate your ebook to the reminiscence of your father. How did this private ingredient have an effect on your analysis and your writing and your enthusiastic about this?
DN: My father returned from Eritrea. He was a 35-year-old lawyer when he was drafted, and the Military didn’t know what to do with him. He was a Decrease East facet and Brooklyn Jew. He began out as a driver. And when Colonel Hutter, who he drove for, was despatched to North Africa, Colonel Hutter mentioned, ‘you bought to go to Officers Candidate Faculty. That is ridiculous.’ He was shipped off to South Carolina. He turned a second lieutenant within the Medical Corps, and the following factor he is aware of, he’s in Eritrea.
Think about this man goes from Brooklyn or Manhattan, to South Carolina, to Eritrea. One thing occurs in Eritrea. He’s despatched there to dismantle a hospital as a result of the American troops had moved on to Sicily after North Africa. He comes dwelling with a medical discharge, full medical incapacity. And an alcoholic. He smokes three to 4 packs of Fortunate Strikes a day, with a coronary heart situation.
I attempted to speak to him in regards to the warfare, however like 95% of the youngsters of World Conflict II veterans that I talked to, my father didn’t wish to speak in regards to the warfare. So I didn’t know what occurred. My father stopped ingesting like different veterans, and he pulled himself collectively. However for the remainder of his life, he by no means bought evening’s sleep with out such sturdy tablets that he needed to take extra tablets to get up within the morning. And that coronary heart situation by no means bought higher. No matter occurred in Eritrea, he died at age 61.
And since I’m a historian, I may attempt to discover out about my father’s expertise by finding out the technology that he belonged to. And on daily basis I kick myself for not pushing tougher to get my father to speak to me. And since he didn’t speak to me, I needed to hearken to the voices of a technology of veterans.
JW: David Nassau new ebook is The Wounded Era: Coming Residence After World Conflict II. David, thanks for speaking with us at this time.
DN: My pleasure. Thanks.
